Game of Thrones: 'The Last of the Starks' (S8E4) Discussion

From Mad Queens to neglected Direwolves, Adam and Rob discuss Episode 4 of Game of Thrones

The following is an edited conversation between Adam and Rob that was not planned as the basis for an article, but has been twisted and hammered into article form anyway.

SPOILERS AHEAD

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Adam: So, what did you actually think about the episode on the whole? Because I was 50/50 on it, in that 50% of it I thought was cool setup and developments and the other 50% was absolutely no good. I’m interested in the strands it’s setting up, but then it fumbles and/or squanders a lot of other scenes. This might be the first GoT episode I’ve watched where I really felt like there was something ‘off’. Just a lot of cumulative elements that weren’t really doing it for me.

For all I defend episode 3, the funeral opening to this episode really exposed the lack of big deaths coming out of such an enormous battle. Jon's giving this big grief-drenched speech about the dead, but outside of feeling sad for Jorah and Theon, I struggled to really buy the moment.

Rob: The funeral should have been bigger! It only served to show up how few main guys died and then they undermine the whole thing in the war room later where they all just say “So we’ve lost half our men” HALF!!!!??? Get fucked with half, that’s utter horse shit.

But yeah other than that I actually thought this episode had a lotta good stuff going on.

1. The intrigue with what part Arya still has to play is rather gripping.

2. I think they’re doing Dany’s descent rather well with the time they’ve got.

3. It’s been far too long since we’ve had a proper length scene with Varys in a darkly lit room talking politics and heresy with someone.

4. I’m really enjoying Sansa’s growing presence.

5. Whilst Tormund and Brienne was funny, Brienne and Jaime seems right and I love the bit we got with them. Jaime also having unfinished business and returning to King’s Landing is good too. I read the scene not as him going back to be with Cersei, but as him owning up to Brienne that he’s not a good person, he’s done horrible shit, that he doesn’t deserve the happiness that we saw him have with her briefly and he’s now gotta go sort some shit out. There’s obviously a lotta internal conflict there because of how he still feels toward Cersei.

Adam: Yeah I did think the Jaime stuff was appropriate, don't get me wrong. Him and Cersei are probably the most complicated dynamic the show has going on right now, so it should hopefully be satisfying seeing that finally come to a close.

I guess the best way to start describing what wasn’t working for me with this one is with Missandei. Her death is, on paper, clearly a motivator for Dany's descent, but I can feel the cogs in the writer's room turning a bit too much when I watch the scene. Her capture comes out of nowhere and instead of fearing for her life, I just start wondering why such a bizarre twist happens. When her head gets cut off, I’m too busy thinking why the story choice happened, rather than be in the moment. I like that character, so I know something's off when I respond to her death more like it’s a formality than a gut punch.

Rob: Yes, Missandei's capture and killing was a bit forced, but it didn’t bother me too much really.

What’s happening with Dany throughout this season (and toward end of last season) has had me really curious as to how her fans are taking it. I’ve never really cared too much for her self-righteousness and shallow talks of destiny but I can see why people have gotten behind her over the course of the show with what she’s done and there’s obviously a lot of love for her - Khaleesi was one of the most popular new names in UK a few years ago!

So I had a look at r/DanaerysWinsTheThrone (I am, of course, a follower of r/SansaWinsTheThrone). And it seems that they’re split into two camps. There’s the camp who think she’s been through so much and all this stuff would make her angry so they’re rooting for her to burn all of KL to the ground and murder anyone in her way. They also think it’s what the show has always been building towards.

Perhaps more understandably, the other camp is arguing that what’s happening is a complete butchering of her character by the writers for the sake of conflict. They’re really angry that this has come from nowhere and ruined their beloved Dany. I can see why they’d be upset, but this hasn’t come from nowhere right? For me, her obsession with a throne in a land that she’s never been has always been an unhealthy one

Adam: I'm verrrrrry conflicted about Dany and her arc. I don't think this turn to kind-of-bad-guy is coming out of nowhere. There's been little hints here and there brewing for a while now and her quest for the throne has slowly morphed over time into a quest for power. So yes, I'm a bit confused as to why people think it's come out of nowhere.

I don't think the way it's being handled is quite appropriate, though. Just having Dany circle back to being her father isn't really clever if you get rid of everything she has been all this time (she clearly has a good heart given her whole 'breaker of chains' thing).

Probably the biggest fumble, though, is that the way the writers are pushing her over the edge isn't actually dramatising that conflict correctly. I can buy the idea that power ultimately corrupts those who seek to claw for it and that Dany's good intentions have slowly been taken over by her worst impulses. Getting rid of her moral compass (Ser Jorah) made sense in that regard. But when you just start killing people to make her mad, you're not capitalising on that. You're just making her the 'Mad Queen' in the shallowest of senses.

Rob: I agree there’s been hints at it for a while now and that actually, over the passage of the whole show, it has generally been well written. I really think any viewer who thinks this is character butchering that’s come out of nowhere has been missing the point.

I’m unsure on whether I agree that they have gotten rid of everything she’s been up to now. I can see where you’re coming from but to me it’s kind of the whole point. The whole time in Essos she had a purpose that was other than herself with her travelling and freeing slaves before giving that big speech about coming to Westeros and wanting to break the wheel. It was a good speech, but perhaps the writers have relied too heavily on call-backs to it instead of further demonstrating what she believes her purpose in Westeros is, if not just ruling because it’s her right. To me though, it does currently seem to be her only motivation for ruling Westeros, as even when she gives that speech about wanting to break the wheel, what she seems to mean is that she wants to be the beginning of a dynasty that goes undisturbed.

I expect her to meet a sticky end, but I’d also like to see her manage to stop her descent down the mad path and realise she’ll never be as fulfilled in Westeros as she was ruling a slaveless Essos and so return there. Right now it’s like she’s turned away from everything she’d been in Essos in this unhealthy pursuit of the throne.

Adam: I can see the point about how she's always just wanted the throne, but I think it will be a slight mistake to act as though that's the only thing she ever wanted. Again, I don’t think that pissing her off is quite appropriate for that kind of character assessment, because it isn't really showing up those particular flaws, it's just pushing her to react. I get the stuff where we see her feel alone and she starts to panic and I understand why Tyrion and Varys have their conversation about her. But pushing her to go all-out attacking Cersei and King's Landing by murdering her dragon and one of her closest friends only demonstrates her anger, not her thirst for power. It’s too easy to understand her subsequent actions, then, when I get the feeling the show wants us to view her as going mad.

Again, I don't think this stuff has come completely out of nowhere, just think that the final part of last episode wasn't quite the right storytelling move for completing the things they set up.

Rob: Okay, a minor nitpick here for me. I know TV shows and films will never ever show a character explaining the same thing twice to two different people cos that stuff is often boring seeing as we already know it, but did we really have to cut away from Sansa and Arya learning about Jon??!! I wanna see their initial reaction goddammit!

Adam: Yes that was ridiculous! It makes the subsequent scenes so much harder to read, which might be the point, but now we've got this extra barrier up between us and Sansa & Arya, which is silly.

Can we also agree that the Bronn scene was weak? I mean, they set up this interesting dilemma for his character in Episode 1 by smashing his apathetic nature up against murdering Tyrion and Jaime, but now they just randomly throw him in a scene where it's barely played as a dilemma at all. Then he just suddenly leaves! Even Jamie and Tyrion look confused as to what just happened!

Rob: Yeah that Bronn scene was no good! No good at all! I thought that whole setup was gonna be such an interesting dynamic that would rear its head when we least expected it. But then it was just that! Nothing! Why bother?

Coming back to earlier, though, I know you don’t care about Ghost, Adam, but clearly neither did the bloody writers. Most people assumed he was dead and gone; why bother bringing him back when he’s done nothing all season???

Adam: So, the more I think about this, the more I understand why it's pissing everyone off (even if I’m mostly ambivalent). When it comes to the end of a story you want to approach each element with as much care as possible and go that little bit extra with each development to make sure it's internally consistent and satisfying. It's why I'm somewhat sympathetic to the fan idea that Sam should have named his son after Edd instead of Jon, given that the former is the one who ended up giving his life to save Sam. How the scene plays out in the actual episode isn’t a deal breaker, but it would have been the kind of decision to show that more thought had gone into the moment.

Jon not petting Ghost doesn't suggest care for that moment. I know the director has said that integrating the real life and GC elements wasn't feasible, but that seems like a weird thing to say considering a Giant picked up and was stabbed by Lyanna just one episode before. Again, it's not a big deal breaker for me like it is for others, but I can see why it is in its own way an issue.

Rob: I have thought that maybe people are judging too quickly and that it actually points toward how the show will end. If you look at the direwolves, their fate is often shared with that of their owner. Robb’s dies at the red wedding. Sansa’s is killed at the will of the Lannister’s which somewhat resembles her loss of innocence to the same people. Arya’s goes free and forges it’s own life and little Rickon’s is butchered by Ramsay Bolton.

So perhaps the saving grace will come near the end when Jon passes on the throne and goes up to live with the wildlings? He’s said multiple times he doesn’t want to fight anymore, much less rule. I can see that life being the one he chooses for himself. Perhaps it’s more symbolic of where Jon would rather be himself, but he is bound by responsibility and obligation to continue the fight that he wishes he wasn’t part of.

Or perhaps I am being too kind and it was just laziness and poor handling. If that is it for Ghost and Jon’s relationship, then it really was poorly done.

Adam: The metaphor might track, but I get the feeling that really was it for Jon and Ghost's, which is pretty sloppy. Again, it doesn't really bother me too much because I wasn't keeping track of it, but objectively you owe your fans more than that considering it's the last Season.

Scores

Adam: 5/10

Rob: 7.5/10

#gameofthrones #got